More ponderings on things - commitment and relationships

[chrisvenus]

Its time for another post with random questions to discuss, this time about commitments and relationships. The relationship part is aimed at those involving jsut two people but those of you in poly relationships should feel free to re-interpret if appropriate to multiple partners.


1) How does a partner in a relationship differ from a very good friend?

2) Ignoring labels people use for "going out" what defines whether two people are in a relationship or is it purely defined by labels?

3) What does commitment in a relationship mean?

4) What expectations should you have of your partner in a relationship?

5) What expetations do you have of yourself in a relationship?

6) Does being in a relationship change who you are and should it?

7) What do you gain from being in a relationship? (The answer "Sex on tap" and similar are not so much what I'm looking for but if that is it then feel free to just say that).

8) What does marriage mean to you? What does it mean above and beyond an unmarried relationship?


Just a few of the random thoughts I've been having...

Comments

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Wow, this going to be an interesting one as all of these are open to individual interpretation. I don't think there are "official" answers.
*watches this thread*

[secondhand-rick.livejournal.com]

The answer to almost all of those questions (but to 4 and 5 in particular) is: it depends on the terms of the relationship.

[chrisvenus]

So at what point do you definie the terms of the relationship? Before asking somebody out or develop them as you go on or a couple of months in sit down for a serious chat?

[secondhand-rick.livejournal.com]

Good question, and one to which I think karohemd's "I don't think there are "official" answers" comment applies.

For me personally, there are default expectations that kick in when I ask someone out (or when I accept if someone asks me out). Those expectations evolve as you become more familiar with each other. If the relationship is to be a serious one, or if it's going to breach the normal default values (i.e. it's going to be open/poly) then the serious chat needs to happen.

As bateleur wisely observes, "There is no substitute for communication".

[chrisvenus]

Yeah. My ponderings were partly related to what those default expectations are. If you ask somebody out what if they have different default expectations or is that just chalking one up on the "incompatible" side of the table?

[secondhand-rick.livejournal.com]

Compatibility is really quite a rare and precious thing I think. A little of that, a dash of compromise, a sprinkling of trust and... but I'm getting away from your question and onto what makes a relationship actually work.

Different people do have different default expectations (something I imagine you hold to be true too, otherwise you'd probably never have started this) - and yes, I think the discovery of that incompatibility can easily lead to an early end for a relationship, especially if the discovery is of the rude awakening type.

As for what might govern those defaults, well, many things; we're all individuals. Age, experience, number of prior relationships - all sorts of relatively ordinary differences between people can lead to significantly different expectations.

So another fine non-answer by secondhand_rick. Anything else you'd like me to cop out of answering?

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

The latter, it's definitely a mutual thing.

[floralaetifica.livejournal.com]

I'm with secondhand_rick. All these questions have different answers in each different relationship, which is why I'm making no attempt to answer them.

The only exception to that for me is 8, to which the answer is 'nothing'. Marriage means nothing to me. I consider it an entirely outmoded construct, and will never bother with it myself. (Note, though, that I recognise it clearly means something to some people, and that's fine. Each to his own.)

[chrisvenus]

And you don't think there is any core of stuff going on in there? I understand that things are always different but I would have thought that there was some parts of the answer that would apply to every relationship...

[floralaetifica.livejournal.com]

No. I think each individual relationship, whether sexual or platonic, works in a way which is particular to that combination of people, at that time in their lives. I have had vastly differing kinds of relationships over the course of my life. For example, I've just come out of a long-term monogamous relationship, but at university I didn't believe in relationships or monogamy, feeling instead that we should just have lots of friends, and if we happened to be sleeping with some of them that was great. I saw several people at once, to different degrees of intimacy. Eventually I stopped this because I realised that, humans and human emotions being what they are, such a situation is ultimately untenable for most people. There are very, very few people who can genuinely be happy this way. My relationship with my friends continues to be quite different from most, though: I am unusually close to my very close friends, and happy to do things with them that others might not, such as sharing a bed with them (even with their partner present). The only reason I don't do much of this these days is because most of my friends are now in the kind of relationships where such behaviour is not considered appropriate. Bloody couples.

So yes, all answers to your questions depends (for me) entirely on the specific arrangement between those specific people at that specific time.

I suppose there's just one more question that I can give a firm opinion on:

Does being in a relationship change who you are and should it?
Every relationship changes us, from serious romantic ones to a brief encounter with a stranger on the bus. That's both unavoidable and as it should be. I think it is possible to be changed to an inappropriate degree or in an inappropriate way, but I don't think that's limited to romantic relationships.

[miss-fuu-chan.livejournal.com]

This is what I think, Chris-kun ^-^

1) In some ways, it doesn't - my boyfriend now was my best friend before we were together - and some things haven't changed. We still enjoy doing the same things together, but we can share more now. We can do things - from holding hands whilst shopping to sharing a bed, that we couldn't before. I think as well as things people can do, the difference is also how you feel. When I'm i'm a relationship with someone I really care for, I can be happy just in their company, and nothing else matters - it doesn't feel like that with a friend.

2) For me, it's strange, but you just know. You don't need to be called anything, you just know when you're in a relationship (if that makes sense ^^;) - I don't think labels are really that important.

3) Totally trusting someone, and havong someone trust you - so that you know you'll both be faithful

4) Very few - I think people expecting too much can sometimes cause the breakdown of a relationship. In my opinion, if you're not happy without expecting more, then you're in the wrong relationship.

5) To be the best girlfriend I can be - to love and trust my partner and always make him happy.

6) I think it usually does, but from what I've seen, the change is usually good - confidence and happiness mostly

7) Having someone who makes me happy, and having the pleasure of making someone feel the same way. I'm a soppy romantic, but I think it's the most satisfying thing in the world.

8) A way to show each other, friends and family how much you love each other. Also, from a sensible point of view - it adds security and is nice for children to grow into.

[evath.livejournal.com]

I'd second that.

8)'s a hard one though. I have a little to add, yes marrying someone is a symbol, but it isn't needed or always suited for those involved. It does however give a sign of commitment for which you expressed to your friends and family, for many I'm sure having a child together can be just as an important sign in modern times. Marriage or children are both things which the norm is not to walk away from.

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

1) In two ways for me. First, I personally don't have sexual contact with my friends. Second, I have the kind of relationship where I share my whole life with my partner, whereas friends are mostly only involved in recreational things.

2) It's one of those things that's hard to classify only because people deliberately make it hard (ooer). If two people get up to sexual stuff with each other that at least one of them wouldn't with a random friend then that's a "relationship".

3) It means what both partners think it means. There is no substitute for communication.

4) Intrinsically? None. There will almost certainly be things you come to expect through knowing your particular partner well, but I don't see these as qualitatively different from the way we develop expectations of anyone we interact with frequently.

5) None that don't also apply outside it. Everyone has moral codes or some sort or another. Hopefully your partner understands yours well enough that they won't get any nasty surprises.

6) Depends what you mean. Every experience I have of any kind changes who I am, in a relationship or otherwise. And yes, if I spend fourteen years of my life hanging around with the same person every day they're going to have a major impact on me. But again, I don't think there's anything particular to relationships there. Some closely related lifestyle choices also have an impact. For example, someone living alone might be more sociable because they might go out to find company where someone with a partner might feel less motivated.

7) Answer too long to fit in the margin! Also, to make some sense out of the question it's necessary to be clear on what it's being compared against. My perception of the modern world is that two person long term partnership seems to work way, way better than any other kind of life-sharing arrangement. Consequently the only other lifestyle which I think comes remotely close to being as good is being single and having a reliable source of enjoyable social contact. Since I don't value most social contact very highly, a permanent relationship works out very well for me.

8) Any given partnership may or may not be permanent, regardless of how long it's been running. At some point, both partners may want to find a way to communicate the idea that they want and will commit to that permanence. For my own relationship, marriage still seemed to me the best way to convey that message. However, for other people marriage has too many negative associations with religion, with the state or with previous failed marriages (whether their parents or their own). So I don't necessarily advocate it for everyone.

[gently-snoozing.livejournal.com]

1) Very little really except I don't tend to share a duvet and gas bills with a very good friend.

2) That depends how pretentious, insecure, unsure the two or more individuals are. If they want to use euphemisms they can it may well change over time, it may not. Past experience says you can't tell until it's stoo late.

3) Do what your told. Or perhaps that should be the willingness not to do what you want to do because of someone else's desires and needs.

4) None, look forward to being pleasantly surprised.

5) Far too many, but that is the problem of being as good as I am.

6) Nope and no it shouldn't.

7) Security.

8) Esse quam videri, or to put it another way it has significance to my wife and as such is important to me because it is important to her.

[mentalfirewall.livejournal.com]

I guess I'll answer these from how I view a relationship and what I consider a relationship should be... is that ok?

1) They're more than a good friend. A partner I reckon should also be a good friend but more so. How are they more? Well... I think there's a sense that you can rely on each other even more and there is a very different, more intimate level of support you can give each other and be that much more open with each other.

2) I'd say that two people were 'going out' if they considered themselve to be going out. If two people consider themselves in a relationship then they are, if they don't think they are then they're not.


3)Faithfullness to that one person. The willingness to put that person's feelings and needs before your own. The determination to work through any problems that may arrise between you.

4) That they'll be there for you when you need them and will try and be understanding. Also that they'll always tell you the truth. I guess also that they make you feel special.

5) That I in turn will be truthfull to my partner and that I'll try and be there for them when they need me and that I'll try and put their needs before my own (does't always happen mind you but I like to try.) I'd also like to think i try and make my partner feel special.

6) Yes it does and yes, i think it should. But if it's the right sort of relationship it should be in a good way - increased confidence and security, happier, more cheerful, more content with life... at least that's how i feel i've changed.


7) Secuirty (mostly emotional), someone to share things with, someone to share responsiblities with, someone to hug.

8) Increased commitment, the knowledge that the other person feels as strongly as you do about them and wants to spend the rest of their life with you, it's a way of saying 'you are the most important person in my life and always will be'. Also added security in life for settling down and having a family.

[chrisvenus]

I guess I'll answer these from how I view a relationship and what I consider a relationship should be... is that ok?

That's exactly what I'm after. I find that sometimes I get ideas in my head that I think are universal and that turn out not to be. ASking these sorts of things is all about people giving their views and opinions so that I can think about it in terms of what others think and try to get myself out of some pretty unhealthy thinking.

very flu-y and maybe incoherant ramblings

[annwfyn.livejournal.com]

1) I think there is a difference. A part of it is that I don't have sex with my friends. There is more to it than that, and I'm trying to put it into words.

I think a part of it is that if I'm poor and don't have any cash, I don't expect my friends to feed me (although some have done and are lovely for it). If I'm in a bad mood, I don't expect my friends to put up with me, and give me a hug to make me feel better. If I get a job offer in another city, I won't take my friends into account when deciding whether or not I should take it. In all those cases, I would give a different answer with my boyfriend.

I think a big part of it is that in the relationship I'm in (and of course others will do things a totally different way), we've decided to forge a life together, and function as more of a social unit, who have to take each other into consideration when making life decisions, and who have also stated that we consider each other's well being to be higher than it would necessarily be for a friend. I love my friends, but if I had to chose between looking after a friend who had just been fired from their job, or looking after Jeremiah if he had just been fired from his job (as a random example), then I wouldn't even hesitate. I have chosen to make Jeremiah my priority, and try and be the person he knows he can rely on in times of stress.

2) Personally, I think the 'going out' label is quite important because it signifies that an actual choice has been made to apply that label. To my mind, it's the choice that makes the difference - the choice to say 'I am willing to be publicly associated with you and I wish people to know that we are trying to form some kind of social unit'. I'm odd tho, in that I've been involved with/shagging/snogging/dating people in the past that I've been very determined to try and avoid the 'boyfriend/girlfriend' label with. Folk have told me I'm daft, and that regularly shagging someone etc does mean boyfriend/girlfriend. In my mind tho, I wasn't ready to be their girlfriend. I wasn't ready to say "I commit to being there for this person", and so I didn't want the label which I think signifies that you've made that choice.

Again, a purely personal thing.

3) Different things to different people. Little things can be very significant to some. Bigger things don't mean so much to others.

For me, one of the biggest commitments I've made in my current relationship is buying jointly owned kittens. Quite a silly little thing, but it meant a lot to me.

4) I don't think there is any such thing as 'should' in a relationship. Relationships, to my mind, are all different. I can whitter all day about what I want out of a relationship, but that is just what matters to me. Others will have totally different requirements. I guess all you can do is try and sort out early on what both parties want and need out of the relationship, and then stick to that.

5) I don't know. I guess to make the other person happy, and experience new and good stuff myself. Beyond that, it has varied muchly from relationship to relationship.

6)Yes. You can change, but that's mostly because life in general changes people. I've changed loads while going out with jez, but then I've changed loads since going to college, and I've changed loads since moving down south. Change kinda happens, but I think it's probably unhealthy if you're with someone who doesn't really want to be going out with you.

7) I get a best friend, good sex, a fantastic guy who can cheer me up whenever I'm down, someone to go halves on a mortgage, someone who wants a lot of the same things as me so we can plan for the future together, and jointly owned cats. I like the cats.

8) Marriage - again - different things to different people. I suppose there's the religious aspect to it - you're not just saying to your friends 'we're staying together' - you're saying it to God, and that is a big thing to do. I guess it's a big legal commitment as well, but then, so is a mortgage. I guess for me the religious stuff is sort of what sets it aside from the other legal ties that two people can also make.

[lord-sandwich.livejournal.com]

1) How does a partner in a relationship differ from a very good friend?
Well obviously sex but I don't think that's really the be all and end all. I spend more time with my partner than I do with most of my friends and we get on very well with each other. Also I guess it's that you can expect them to go that extra mile when you need them to, even when you wouldn't expect that from a friend. Although you would never expect them to spend every living minute with you, I think wanting to spend a good share of your free time together is important.

2) Ignoring labels people use for "going out" what defines whether two people are in a relationship or is it purely defined by labels?
I think to be honest that there has to be some level of commitment to one another. I don't think it necessarily has to be the intention to get married and stay together forever but at least the intention of sharing something long term with each other. I think of people "going out" as being quite different to being in a relationship. Just "going out" implies to me something much more casual and less serious.

3) What does commitment in a relationship mean?
Fidelity for one thing. Even if someone is in an open relationship there still has to be some level of emotional monogamy even if there is not physical monogamy. Obviously in my personal relationships I feel I need to have both as a sign of my partners commitment. Also as I said before the intention to create something long term and lasting.

4) What expectations should you have of your partner in a relationship?
Faithfulness. The ability to listen to my opinions and appreciate them even if he doen't agree. Being someone I enjoy spending time with and talking to.

5) What expetations do you have of yourself in a relationship?
The same.

6) Does being in a relationship change who you are and should it?
Not beyond being committed to your partner and as other people have said being more confident and secure. A partner who expects you to change for them isn't worth it.

7) What do you gain from being in a relationship? (The answer "Sex on tap" and similar are not so much what I'm looking for but if that is it then feel free to just say that).
Security, friendship and someone who will support you when you need it. I think sex is a part of it but as I said before not the be all and end all.

8) What does marriage mean to you? What does it mean above and beyond an unmarried relationship?
Saying once and for all you want to be together forever. It is something I wholeheartedly support and think it's a shame that so few people seem to take it seriously these days. For me personally there is some religious aspect to it but I also think it has more secular benefits, like knowing you partner is going to be there for you and is completely committed to you. I guess a lot of people see it as a secure arrangement to start planning a family in but I think, although this is a part of it too, it should be predominantly about both partners and their relationship with each other.

[chrisvenus]

I think of people "going out" as being quite different to being in a relationship.

I'd be interested in hearing more detail than that or perhaps just looking at those questions in terms of going out. I know what you mean I think but I'm not sure I'm quite able to put my finger on what I think in my own head.

[lord-sandwich.livejournal.com]

I guess going out is like testing the water, trying to see if you're compatible by spending a little time together. You don't necessarily expect total monogamy at this stage, although that really depends on the people involved and how they feel about each other. Being in a relationship is saying "yes, I really do like this person and want to be with them". Going out with someone is trying to establish whether you really think you can be more than friends. I guess it means the most if you're dating someone who you weren't particularly close with beforehand and whilst you might find them attractive you want to know more about them before totally commiting.