Another Cam rant

[chrisvenus]

OK. I'm getting annoyed and I feel an urge to vent. Its about the big Cam Year of Fire, Time of Judgement, apocalypse end of the world thing. I'll cut it so if anybody complains at my opinions then I can tell them its their fault for reading it.

So why the rant?

The rant is about the attitude in Cam at the moment. So many people seem so keen to bitch and rant and complain and far as I can tell quote facts that have no actual factual content whatsoever.

People are bitching and moaning that this plotline is going to cause everybody to leave. No, not really. The fuckign bitching and moaning is what is making me want to leave.

I thought this was a roleplaying society. I am frankly appalled at the number of people who say "if I'm going to die in a year's time then what's the point?" Maybe its just because of my oxford roleplaying background but I don't get the question. Isn't that the same as saying "What is the point in roleplaying?"?

It strikes me that far too many people are interested not in roleplaying their character but by "winning" or something by achieving their goals. I look at the people who say "I had a two year plan but there's no point any more" and want to shake them a bit and say "Why don't you roleplay the first year of the plan then?"

I am frankly speaking quite appalled that this society of roleplayers doesn't seem to be interested in doing this roleplaying.

I understand that there are concerns and that people might want to do different things, not run the plot and so on but I'm pissed off at all those who say "What's the point of seeing it through if this plot runs."

I would dearly love for somebody to justify that logic to me so that my faith in the cam can be restored. I dearly love roleplaying with the cam but some of the conversation going on recently has made me wonder why I want to be in a society with all these people.

Its times like this that make me very thankful of having OURPGSoc to Roleplay with as well.

And also times like this that I am glad that inskauldrak is my DST since no matter what else goes on he will make sure the players enjoy it. Unfortunately he can't stop my unhealthy urge to read uk-general.

Comments

[nevecat.livejournal.com]

*waves hands Southern-Baptist style* Amen!

There'll be plenty of STs continuing to break...um, I mean, provide interesting roleplay for however long it lasts :)

Any cranking up of the pressure in recent days has been /purely/ PC generated ;)

[sesquipedality.livejournal.com]

I have some sympathy with both sides of this. Look at it this way - it's like every character in the game just bought the Dark Fate flaw. It makes me sad to think Strolls will never live long enough to see her cubs grow up to adulthood - that something that was such as sacrifice for her was an essentially futile act. Sure, that's a story in itself, but is it the story I signed up for?

Personally I've never particularly had a problem with unhappy endings. If it happens, it happens, although I find myself rooting for my characters and hoping against hope that they manage to carve out a little niche of happiness for themselves.

I guess that a lot of the fun of the story comes from not knowing the ending. And now we know at least part of the ending. Arguably we've known all along. It's not as if WW source matter was unclear on this one. Gehenna is coming. Deal.

I know some STs will pull a blinder with the end times. I thoroughly expect Strolls to have a fascinating ending to her story, because I know the Oxford STs are that good. Other characters, well the STs who know them inside out are no longer STs. They will die, and there's little the ST currently running them can do to make a satisfying end for them.

On the whole, as I've said, I'm not that bothered by the whole thing. It does lend a certain aura of futility to what used to be an open-ended game. There is a sense in which players no longer have the same degree of influence over their characters outcomes. I can understand why this makes people angry, even though it doesn't particularly do that to me.

[taimatsu]

Your final paragraph hits the nail on the head. Despite the whole 'WW has always written with eventual End Times in mind' thing, we did sign up for an open-ended chronicle - that's what the Camarilla is about,and why it differs from the kind of shorter-lived tabletop or LARP campaign that friends run among themselves. It's not like that any more, and yes it'll be fun, yes it'll be good RP, yes it will be enjoyable - but there's no denying something has changed, and the inescapability of fairly imminent Doom with a capital D is, well, moving the goalposts a bit.

[chrisvenus]

I didn't sign up for an open ended chronicle. I signed up for a game set in the WoD. I signed up for a game, nothign more, nothing less. Its *always* been up to the STs as to where it goes. It just happens not to have had a definite end date now.

And tabletops and other LARP campaigns are no more short lived than Cam is. The game Dawn is running might come to an end but I know of tabletops that have been longer running than the cam has been in existance. It isn't a unique point the cam has. It isn't something special about it. Its just a factor of how its been STed.

If you think the camarilla is about an open-ended chronicle then this is where we differ I think. I personally think it is about roleplaying. Anything else is secondary to that.

And what inescapable doom anyway? IC I know nothing about it (well, nothing more than I did a month ago I suppose). OOC it makes no difference to my RP because, well, IC I know nothing about it. This is what I don't get. Why do people think the goalposts have moved when really they haven't. I can understand concerns of what we run after but that is a totally separate issue.

[taimatsu]

Okay, we differ.

In the Feng Shui campaign I've just started, I know it's not running for longer than six months or so at the outside. I know the characters will have their adventure and then get packed away in their boxes, whether dead, bleeding, or pretty healthy. I'm anticipating an arc, a story with a beginning, a middle and an end in a fairly confined period of time.

The Cam is a bit different. Maybe it's about my inexperience as an RPer, but that *is* something special about it for me - the idea that the story carries on, and if my character is lucky, she can continue to be a part of it. That isn't the case any more, because, well, it's going to stop, and my character *is* going to die - and she can't avoid it. It's not like knowing OOC that so-and-so has it in for your character, and wondering how she'll find out IC and what she might do, it's not a situation where the character has a chance. The character doesn't know it, but the player does, and it's a bit of a let-down.

I hesitate to use this comparison, because I wasn't about at the time really, but it's a little like Leonie's death - she had no way of escape, it was totally pre-determined, definitely going to end fatally, and while cool stuff happened and the death-scene was dramatic and all, it was upsetting for Krys and the rest of you involved because you felt you didn't have any control over it, or any options. (Now you're going to tell me I'm all wrong, and I totally misunderstood what was happenning. Sorry if I did, that's all gleaned from LJ and the odd face-to-face conversation. Do you understand what I'm trying to say, though?)

For some people - maybe not for you - part of the enjoyment of roleplaying is looking forward, OOC, to future IC possibilities. This could be in a specific way - for example, my boggan has an IC plan to have a big feast for the Kithain of Albion, in about 6 months' time. That's fun for her IC, but it's fun for me to look forward to OOC too. Someone who plays a devious plotty character might enjoy OOC looking forward to the long-range implications of their character's evil master-plan, which has been in preparation two years and will take another 12 months to come to fruition (as long as no-one blunders into that basement...) It might be as simple as having an OOC cool idea for a custom rote which is perfectly in paradigm, which you can't use till your character has had two seekings and learnt a new sphere.

It's interesting to look forward two or three years and think 'What will have happened? How might my character react? Will she survive?' but it means letting go of other plans and ideas which might have been long-cherished.

It seems clear you don't see it that way, but lots of other people do have plans and hopes like that, and that's one reason why people are upset.

[chrisvenus]

Hmmm... I have plans and stuff. I have a list of things to do when I become an elder and are things I would really like to do. However, the new plot just brings in new thigns that I will like to do. Options of things that I will be able to do because it is the end and so on. And after that? there'll be more characters that I will be able to have plans for.

Maybe this is a difference in experience between you and I, I've been through enough characters and had enough plots cut off in their prime and so on that the idea of the goals not being achievable with this character doesn't mean it will never happen, just that the story will end up being told with another character.

Its strange. I see what you are saying but part of me is saying "no, I can't quite understand because it just isn't right". Now I'm not saying you are wrong because that would be supremely arrogant of me. Just that I think I have a fundamental inability to truly grasp the other point of view and why people don't see the alternatives. *shrug* kind of odd.

[sesquipedality.livejournal.com]

The Camarilla is not sold as "a game, nothing more, nothing less". While I'd agree with you that that is the case, bear in mind that for example, Andy and I are considered harsh STs because our plot has occasionally killed characters. Like it or not, there is a culture in the Cam of player vs. player antagonism as being the focus of the game. All of a sudden, these superhero types have suddenly realised they aren't the centre of their own little universe after all.

As to whether it's about an open ended chronicle or roleplaying, why can't it be about both? The prevailing Cam culture is that people come to the games for a bit of a laugh and light relaxation. This does not sit well with the End Times. For most Cammies, it's escapism, not roleplay. You're damn lucky to have a local game where they actually understand what roleplay really is. The majority of the Cam is not like that.

And is it not a perfectly natural thing to feel saddened that the end is coming anyway? You appear to be suggesting that feeling sad on an OOC level translates to IC actions. You know, the stories might end happily (although I hope not - that would be a really crappy cop-out), but most people didn't expect an end at all - they aren't used to ST fiat ending their fun, because that's Not The Way Things are Done.

If you don't feel bad that the Year of Fire is on the way, more power to you. (I don't either, as it happens. That's beside the point.) But I think it's unreasonable to say that people have no legitimate reason to be upset by it. A lot of people dislike change, whatever that change may be. Of course you may just be complaining that people aren't reacting logically to the whole situation, in which case, yes, I'd agree totally, but feelings aren't always dictated by logic. People feel that something important to them has been taken for them. The ranting and raving is in a large sense a reaction to that loss.

(Oh, and I'm sure there are some absolute loonies at it ten to the dozen on uk-general, because, well, there always are - I've not read any of it - it makes no difference to me. So there's a chance I'm being overgenerous here. And I don't have any wish to defend the loonies viewpoints.)

All I'm saying is that the Cam is different things to different people. Claiming someone's a bad roleplayer because they're upset at the prospect of losing characters, on in the case of Changeling, the entire game within its current framework, seems overly harsh to me.

[chrisvenus]

I hope I never said anybody was a bad roleplayer. I take great pains to avoid that usually so if i did say that I will beat myself thoroughly.

Your points are well made though, in particular the observation of me being very used to oxford roleplaying. I've often felt that I am not a big fan of the Cam and I've said in the past that the only reason I haven't left is because I like my character.

I might well not be back after the end but that's nothing to do with the end, just to do with my character. I'm atually more likely now to play after this character to see what the brave new world will be.

Anyway, back to the point, yeah, the cam is different things to different people. My original point (before it became a big rant) was meant to be "why are people whinging so much". It is different things to different people. Accept it and therefore accept that any opinion is not a majority one so screaming "we must do this" or "we have to do that" is not appropriate. Give opinions but ranting and raving and announcing with no proof what everybody's reaction will be (somebody was quoting walkout rates as if they were fact) is not right.

[syeniess.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'm more worried that the speed with which WW want it run (all over, done and dusted by next year, it seems) means it may well be in danger of losing something of the threat.

I know damn well that the STs involved when it's run will do their damnedest with the material, but the fact is that less than 12 months is a hell of a short time to build an effective feeling of dread and threat of the End Times. By all means, the threat of Gehenna with no actual Gehenna ever - kinda weak-arsed. But the speed-running of rapid demise of everything also risks being weak and undermining the whole feeling of it by happening *so* fast that there's no time to reflect and truly build an atmosphere for it.

*shrugs* Hope that makes some sense :) Plus, tbh, I can't see them continuing Changeling after this Year of Fire, and that's a venue I really enjoy. Killing it dead just because it's not selling enough books for them is a bit..well, off really.

[karohemd.livejournal.com]

Killing it dead just because it's not selling enough books for them is a bit..well, off really.

From our, the players' point of view, yes, from WW's? Certainly not. They are primarily a business trying to make a profit.
Discontinuing product lines because they aren't popular anymore is standard method anywhere.

On the whole, I agree with Chris. I see some very good RP come our way and I'm certainly going to enjoy it.
The WoD that comes after? Who knows what it'll be but (at least according to Achilli) not a post-apocalyptic version of the current one.

The attitude Chris describes seems to prevail at the moment which is a bit of a shame, really.

We don't know yet if YoF will go ahead. From what Paul H (CB Vamp DST) told me is that the UK won't go ahead with anything until we know what the deal is, i.e. what's going to come after.
Also, we all know how long canon changes and rules implementations take in the Cam, so we might well have more than just one year. In WW canon, all the signs of the End Times have happened, in the Cam chronicle only a couple (Week of Nightmares, Avatar Storm). If they want to end it by end of next year, there'd need to be one major thing happening almost every month...

The sad thing is that I see another split coming between people who want to follow WW and those who want to continue the current Chronicle. I would be very surprised if that doesn't happen.

Grrr

[(Anonymous)]

I'm sorry, but your attitude fucks me off something chronic and is much more like the US attitude that always grips my shit.

The Cam games are not like TT games or indep larp games.

They are open ended.

The appeal is in the possibility of long term accomplishment and development. Yes, things may stop you but there is always a CHANCE.

This is an event with NO hope, even if you survive or win, you get reset, game over.

We are a society of roleplayers, but the Cam's appeal is different to that of TT games etc.

We don't get together to tell a single story, we weave a tapestry of individual stories.

Now we're sacrificing 10,000 stories for the sake of one, and it's the type of plot that has NEVER worked well in the Cam before.

Does that explain it?

G

Re: Grrr

[chrisvenus]

It explains it but I am still not 100% sure that I agree. I think as I said elsewhere that it is a different view on the whole thing. Maybe I've never got the great advantages of longtermness. Maybe I don't see why Cam is different from other games.

Comments like "This is the type of plot that has never worked well before" I can't argue with either way having never seen anything like this before up close. This is certainly something that worries me and I think that my ultimate way of coming to terms with this shows that I am not perhaps as passionate about cam as people like you are. This may be because I don't see most of what you say above as unique so I don't see any harm in taking the risk. Others might not have access to as many games as I do so perhaps see it as a risk not worth taking.

*shrug* I think I have seen more viewpoints now so I understand better. Whether I totally understand I am not sure. I guess I have to wait til I see more comments and posts.

It is still the "we might as well give up now rather than in a year's time" attitude that I most don't get though. This is the one that really annoys me.

*shrug*

Re: Grrr

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

The Cam games are not like TT games or indep larp games. They are open ended

In saying this, contradicting Chris' claim:

And tabletops and other LARP campaigns are no more short lived than Cam is. The game Dawn is running might come to an end but I know of tabletops that have been longer running than the cam has been in existance.

Are you saying that he is mistaken, or are you saying he's lying?

[riksowden.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[ao-lai.livejournal.com]

Well, I realise that there's a lot of potential for good roleplaying in a scenario like this, but at least from where I stand, I'd have to be in the right sort of mood to appreciate it.

I mean, it could be argued that a 'good roleplayer' should be able to take this entirely in their stride, but that's also the sort of theory that suggests that a good roleplayer should be able to, for example, play any pre-generated character that they are given. Whilst perhaps that's true, its not necessarily something that everyone will think is fun, not even the 'good roleplayers': And come to think of it, an individual player's level of skill in that technical side of roleplaying doesn't necessarily have very much to do with whether they are a good player, in the sense of contributions to the game and getting along with the other players and STs.

At the end of the day, it's a game, and games are supposed to be fun. Of course, it could be argued that given the written remit of the WoD, people who sign up for such a game and expect to have a happy and cheerful time of things might, perhaps, be in the wrong game... And that's a whole different debate.

But it is one reason why I don't play Cam. :)